Technical Analysis: Shoulder Throw
May. 11, 2011 By: Filed in: Throws/Takedowns
Last week I discussed how to work up to throwing a much bigger person. The post was inspired by the difficulties that a very small woman (5’1″, 115 lbs) at my dojo was having when attempting to do a shoulder throw (ippon seioi nage) on a much bigger man (6’1″, 210 lbs). No, the shoulder throw is not the ideal self-defense takedown for her in that scenario. Yes, there are throws that she could learn to do on a much bigger guy more easily. The point of the post was how to approach the difficulties that come when learning to do a shoulder throw (or other similar throws) on a much bigger person.
Understanding and applying all the technical points of the shoulder throw is, of course, key to successfully doing the throw, no matter who you’re working with. This week, I thought I’d discuss the finer points one should work on in the shoulder throw. There are 2 critical points to focus on; balance breaking (kuzushi) and casting.
Breaking (Kuzushi) for Shoulder Throw (Seoi Nage)
When doing a shoulder throw you first have to be in the right position in relation to your uke so that you can properly break their balance. As you move in to throw, make sure your hips are square to your partner, right in front of them, positioning your arm under your partner’s shoulder . If you are significantly shorter, you’ll likely need to give yourself a little more distance so that when you break their balance you are supporting them from your hips. Bend your knees so that your hips are below your partner’s hips while leaning your upper body forward slightly. Once the heels are off the ground, their balance is broken and you can easily throw them. Do not lift them fully off the ground with your legs to throw them. Lifting them like this wastes energy and if you’re much smaller than the person you may find that you might not be able to support all their weight like this. Once their heels are up, you simply guide them forward, propelling from the hips as they “trip” over you.
“Casting” the Shoulder Throw
One of the most common mistakes when doing a shoulder throw is letting the arm fold into your body as you try to draw your partner around. This causes them to fold into you or fall more off one side of your body. Instead, you want to draw their balance and weight over and past your body. To do this, try to keep your arm firmly out at a 90 degree angle from your shoulder as you draw your partner forward and over your body. It should feel very similar to the casting motion you would use when casting with a fishing rod.
Be sure to control your partner’s shoulder by keeping it wedged in your elbow, NOT by drawing it over your own shoulder. There are 2 reasons for this. The first is for self-defense reasons. When their arm is over your shoulder, the person you’re throwing can more easily slip their arm around your neck to choke you before you get your throw in. The second reason is training safety. Drawing your partner’s shoulder over your own shoulder can stretch out the muscles/tendons in their shoulder and gives your partner less control over their breakfall position when thrown.
Below is a video I put together to help illustrate these points. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask in the comments. 🙂
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I enjoyed the video.
I liked your explanation of casting. That mental image can really help while practicing throws. Thanks.
What do you think are the best applications for ippon seio nage? Personally I don't find this throw all that useful (too easy to counter) and in general I don't like to turn my back to the opponent.
If you were going to actually use it for combat, it is best used to defend against a downward strike of some sort as it allows you to add the attack's momentum into the throw. Honestly speaking though, I generally recommend against throws that require you to turn your back in real life application.
That being said, you can learn a lot about momentum and balance breaking from this throw as a general concept even if you're not going to apply it in a real situation.
Personally I think the best application is against attacks from the rear since you're already in the perfect position, this applies to shoulder and hip throws. I especially like the seio otoshi against a rear strangle.
Seioi otoshi is much better than seioi nage from a rear grab because you don't need space to apply the finer balance breaking points like you do with ippon seioi nage. As for hip throws, I agree when it comes to certain ones, but others make more sense from a side on position, like hane goshi (spring hip) or uki goshi (floating hip).
Of course I wouldn't use most of these throws in a real life defensive situation anyway, but one should still consider the best ways to apply them if one is going to learn them. Thanks for commenting!
For every technique there's an opportunity but some are more useful than others. Of course they are part of the art and hence should be learned but for the most part I tend to disregard throws since they usually need to be executed perfectly in order to work and if they don't you'll get stuck in a very messy situation likely to end on the ground. With hip and shoulder throws I found that it's quite possible to hold on and drag him to the ground or even throw using a sacrifice motion, while strikes and locks are much harder to negate and counter. I do think throws would have been more useful in the conditions for which the techniques were originally devised: armored men grappling in close quarters since it would have been much easier to manipulate and break someone balance due to the added weight and the lower mobility. Against a good striker judo type throws are probably harder to execute while grappling like takedowns might be more appropriate since they don't rely on getting a good grip. I found this is the weakness to a lot of traditional throws.
Very true.
You may also want to mention "fitting." Without which they just slide off or down your back.
I'm not sure what you mean by "fitting". I have a couple of thoughts, but you might have something different in your mind. Could you possibly elaborate as to what you mean?